RNZN Comms Assn Presentation to Select Committee.
Presentation to Select Committee
A text copy of the RNZNCA submission is copied below or view the verbal submission by clicking HERE
My name is Frank Rands, Commander Retired and I am accompanied today by Mr. Chris Farrow, a Lieutenant Retired and who also served in the Royal New Zealand Navy. Today we sit before this select committee, not as two ex-naval personnel but as the representatives of the 600 members of the Royal New Zealand Navy Communicators Association which has been in existence since 1967.
WHAT IS A VETERAN?
Ladies and Gentlemen, this is the nub of the issue. Today, having served 52 years in the Royal New Zealand Navy in the service of our country, I am still not considered a Veteran under this Act. I joined the Navy in 1966 and retired in 2018. Eight years of my service was completed prior to 1 April 1974, which is a significant date in the Veterans Support Act of 2014.
Anybody serving prior to this date is deemed to have Qualifying Routine Service, but is still not recognised as a Veteran, and thus not entitled to the benefits as only personnel who have Qualifying Operational Service i.e a recognise deployment, qualify under this Act. I am not alone, there are hundreds of my shipmates and other NZ Defence Force personnel who do not fit the Qualifying Operational Service criteria.
Amendment no 2 to this act finally addresses in part the Veteran question by amending the Interpretation of the term Veteran and including those members of the New Zealand Defence Force who served prior to 1 April 1974.
Well what does this amendment actually mean? Yes, we can now call ourselves Veterans and we can receive a nice badge and certificate from the Government of New Zealand, but what else does this amendment provide? Nothing.
As you are aware the Veteran Support Act was reviewed by Professor Ron Patterson in 2016 and he presented his report to the Government in 2018. His report had 64 recommendations of which the main question was What is a Veteran and how are the people of New Zealand going to recognise this status.
The current Minister of Veteran Affairs convened a Veterans Advisory Board to investigate these two questions and a report was rendered to the Minister in June 2019. In general terms, the report recommends the removal of the terms Qualifying Routine Service and Qualifying Operational Service and to recognise all personnel who attest into the New Zealand Defence Force as Veterans. This would bring us into line with Australia, Canada, the United Kingdom and the United States of America who use this as their criteria to recognise their veterans.
During the early part of my service I served in the Far East Strategic Reserve and also ANZUK forces in Singapore. This service is not recognised by New Zealand whereas Australia and the United Kingdom both recognise this period of service with medallic recognition and as ‘operational’ which is the key word when considering entitlements under the Veterans Support Act. A short history lesson in layman’s terms:
In 1965 the United Kingdom, decided that they would pull out of Singapore and allow Singapore to become independent. During the period 1965 – 1976 the region was in turmoil with Communist infiltrating most of the surrounding Asian countries. Malaysia was flexing its muscles and was keen to annex Singapore. Lee Quan Yew was the leader ruling Singapore and kept a very strong hold on the opposition main political party, the Peoples Action Party. New Zealand’s commitment to the region was to place a frigate on the Far East Station, a Battalion based in Singapore at Dieppe Barracks and a RNZAF squadron based out of Royal Airforce Base Tengah. The United Kingdom were due to hand over Singapore in 1971 but due to the regional security situation elected to remain as part of an ANZUK force with both Australia and New Zealand committing personnel and equipment to the region.
Prior to and during the period 1966 – 1974 RNZN frigates undertook training in ‘Aid to Civil Power’ which was the provision of armed personnel in disciplined squads to be used to quell rioting groups ashore etc. RNZN personnel were subjected to exposure to tear gas and undertook exercises known as ‘Operation Awkward’ which was to prevent divers from placing mines on the bottom of the ship.
We worked alongside Royal Australian and Royal Navy ships on the same exercises and were exposed to the same environment. During the ANZUK 1971 – 1975 period those service personnel who lived outside of military establishments displayed large white with black writing signs on their gates so in the event of an emergency, they and their families could be picked up and moved to safety quickly. Was there a threat? Were Defence Force personnel oblivious to these threats? to a greater extent yes, as they were not informed. We were a peacekeeping force by stealth.
Did Australia and the United Kingdom subsequently in their review of the 1966 – 1975 period accept there was a threat and declared the period as operational? Yes, they did, and they also recognised this service by awarding medals. So why did New Zealand refuse their personnel this same recognition? A good question which our Association has been trying to get answers for the past 6 years.
So, where does it leave the service personnel who served their country prior to 1 April 1974?
Yes, this amendment to the Bill accepts that they are now veterans but what it does not do is allow any of the following:
This veteran or his spouse cannot be buried in the service section of his local cemetery.
This veteran or his spouse is not entitled to any funeral assistance.
This veteran is not entitled to the Veterans Gold Card and thus any discounts provided under this card.
This veteran is not entitled to any financial support.
This veteran is not entitled to travel assistance.
This veteran is not entitled to commemorative project contribution.
This veteran, his or her family and children are not entitled to ‘diddly squat’.
With reference to the amendment of section 9 of the act in that declarations need not be put in the Gazette. This change is seen as lessening the importance of such a declaration and, in effect, allows the Government of the day to abrogate their responsibilities in this matter. Furthermore, our Association questions if the Minister of Veteran Affairs is correct as the deciding body to determine whether an operation should be deemed Operational for the purposes of the Act or should this responsibility lie more appropriately with the Minister of Defence notwithstanding that the current incumbent holds both portfolios.
It is considered healthier if there was some demarcation between the responsibilities of these two positions.
I would like to thank the Select Committee for their time today and for providing me with the opportunity to speak to you on behalf of the 600 members of the Royal New Zealand Navy Communicators Association. Chris and I are now very happy to answer any questions you may have.
To view the video of the entire verbal submissions click HERE
The RNZNCA Submission to the Social Services and Community Committee hearing was provided on Tuesday, 23 June 2020 by Frank Rands, assisted by Chris Farrow.
The members of the Social Services and Community Committee hearing were;
Mr Gareth Hughes, Chairperson, Green Party List
Mr James Strange, Labour, initially for approx. 30 percent of the hearing. Mr Strange was replaced by the Hon Ruth Dyson for approx. 30 percent of the hearing. Ms Dyson was replaced by the Hon Weka Whatiri for the rest of the hearing.
Priyanca Radhakrishnan, Deputy Chairperson, Labour Part List
Mr Darroch Ball, NZ First Party List
Anahila Kanongata’a-Suisuiki, Labour party List
Agnes Loheni, National Party List
Tim Macindoe, National Party, Hamilton West
Hon Alfred Ngaro, National Party List was absent from the entire hearing.
Hon Louise Upston, National Party Taupo. Ms Upston was replaced by Mr Chris Penk,
National spokesman for Veteran Affairs for over 60 percent of the hearing.
Angie Warren-Clark, Labour Party List
In addition to the authorised Submitters to the hearing, there were four Veterans Affairs staff observers. Whilst these members were not identified to the visiting Submitters, we did recognise Ms Jo Elworthy, Principal Advisor to Ms Bernadine Mackenzie, Head of Veterans Affairs. Neal Catley and Chris Farrow have had business dealings with Jo Elworthy in an earlier life.
The Submitters to the Veterans’ Support Amendment Bill (No 2) were heard in the following order;
Auckland District RSA’s (Zoom) President Auckland RSA
Mr Graham Gibson
Colin Parkinson (Zoom) Personal submission
Frank Lewis (Zoom) (ex PORS) Personal submission 5mins
Pertaining to the later removal of the ‘Operational Service’ designation to the HMNZS BLACKPOOL time on the Far East on her maiden voyage return to New Zealand. Apparently this Operational designation was unknowingly stripped some years later and
announced without fanfare on social media, a decision and promulgation of which no-one was aware.
Barry Dreyer, + 2 pers Royal New Zealand Artillery Assoc
A copy of this submission is available.
Frank Rands and Chris Farrow Royal NZ Navy Comms Assn
A number of points raised in Frank’s excellent oral submission were supported and referenced by a number of follow-on submitters. During the question period following Frank’s oral submission, Frank had the opportunity to raise what occurred at Tom Hiini’s funeral over the burial fiasco. At the conclusion of the Comms Assoc oral submission, and in the Chairpersons words, ‘the Assoc has made a very strong submission, powerfully made’.
Dennis Mardle, South East Asian Vets Assn. Stewart Turvey. A copy of this submission is available.
William Stewart (ex WOEL) Personal submission
Mark Compain Personal submission (ex-Welfare Manager, RSA National Office) An excellent, impassioned oral presentation from a submitter with a wealth of welfare experience dealing with veterans.
Mrs Karen Rolleston, CEO, RSA Royal NZ RSA (National Office)
Richard Terrill. Following and introduction by Karen Rolleston, she handed over to Mr Terrill. Mr Terrill made a surprising statement which appeared to blindside his RSA CEO. Their formal submission stated quote ‘We are grateful that Parliament has brought this bill forward in these most difficult times. We welcome and support most of the amendments which address issues raised in the Patterson report. However, in his oral submission, Mr Terrill stated that in his view, the bill should be scrapped and rewritten.
In our view, it appears that the National Office of the RSA had not circulated its submission to RSA’s around the country – and we question whether they were aware of the Auckland RSA’s separate submission – and vice versa.
Gavin Smith (ex RNZN) Personal Submission
Gavin Smith (ex RNZN) Mururoa Nuclear Vets Group Inc
Jack Steer (Rtd RAdm) Personal submission
Overall, the majority of submissions supported a number of similar points, namely;
- Most submissions questioned the definition of ‘What is a NZ Veteran’ and called for the need for a new simplified definition of a New Zealand Veteran
- Recommended the deletion of the two classes of veteran, namely QOS and QRS – particularly in view of the number of deployments over the decades not designated ‘Operational’ by Defence/Veterans’ Affairs.
- Recommended that Veterans’ Affairs handle all veterans health issues, not ACC after 2014 as changed by the 2014 Act.
- Supported the continuation of the requirement for Veterans’ Affairs to adhere to the 30-day rule
- Supported the continuation of the requirement for Veterans’ Affairs to Gazette decisions and not revert to promulgation by social media
As an aside, it is interesting to note the number of ex RNZN submitters to this Amendment Bill.
Well Done Frank & Chris. Been a long time coming.
I was watching Jack Steer in the background and the lady licking her lips behind Frank & Chris. Quite enlightening.
Good relative points and the emphasis on the time lag dealing with the various ministers over the 6 year period.
Loved the point being made about the same person holding the VA and NZDEF portfolio’s.
BZ
Terry
Most BLOG readers will know that Godfrey Dykes [Jeff] served in the Royal Navy for 30 years and retired as a senior Warrant Officer Radio Communications Instructor [RCI]. Also, noting that Jeff is one of the Royal Navy Senior Historians and often reads the RNZNCA weekly newsletter. It is interesting to note that Jeff viewed the entire video presentation to the Social Services and Community Committee [SSCC] on Tuesday 23 June 2020 with particular focus on the RNZN Communicators Association presentation. Jeff’s general commentary on our presentation is as follows:
QUOTE.
For some considerable time now, I have been aware of the sheer frustration of many in the RNZNCA concerning the struggle to get official recognition for time served in the Far East in the period 1965 to 1975 specifically on so called peacekeeping duties in Malaysia and Singapore. Throughout this period there was much “keeping” to be done for the whole area was continuously threatened by communist insurgents spawned by the three-year war known to all as the Indonesian Confrontation. The British high command declared these areas during this period as hostile and prone at any time to a major escalation. Fortunately, chiefly because of the commitment of Commonwealth armed forces other than British, the ‘peace keepers’ maintained a peace which eventually took away the main threats and by the time these FESR forces were stood down, peace and tranquillity were restored to this volatile area. Those “other than British” were of course Australian and New Zealand armed forces from all three services and some special service forces, who bore the brunt of these duties after the cessation of the Confrontation proper, namely in the period 1963-1965. The Australian Government rewarded their forces adding the clasp ‘FESR’ to the GSM, itself with several clasps. The New Zealand Government chose inexplicably not to do so, which today, counting from 1966, a period of 53 long years, more than ever still rankles with New Zealanders.
I have watched attempts made by the RNZNCA to resolve this matter, a matter which has snubbed many hundreds of New Zealanders in their desire to have the same medallic and veteran status recognition for exactly the same time and service as the Australian Government gave to its forces, frustrated by indifference in Wellington, which, as a Commonwealth naval man serving in a third Royal navy, brothers-in-arms so to speak, brings about a heighted consternation that my “brothers” are seemingly in name only, without the pats on the backs rightly and justified, and moreover given to some whilst many are and were ignored.
I write in, having recently watched a zooming session in which representatives of different New Zealand forces involved, had the opportunity to present their submissions to recent amendments on the Veterans Association Bill, for I was much impressed by Commander Frank Rands RNZN Retired and the way he delivered his robust response to an issue which whilst giving some recognition to an expanded definition of ‘What is a New Zealand Veteran’ thanks the Team hosting the Zoom session but pointed out in a polite way, that the new status was all well and good, but, it had no teeth: much of what was expected of being veterans was yet again denied, and not worth the paper it was printed on. Commander Rands delivered a passionate speech in a calm professional manner befitting his rank, with near perfect articulation [no hums and ha’s]. It greatly affected me and left me wondering how anybody in authority listening to him, could not take into heart and soul, and subsequently endorse it and all its points raised as official policy from thereon in. That was shared by one of the Board Member who spontaneously thanked the commander for his time in the session, his obvious dedication to the subject matter, and for his services to Queen and Country, and that was not freely given to other speakers, many of whom receiving only a well-rehearsed “any questions – no response – thank you and time is tight so who is next” running the show as a conveyor belt session, almost heartless and matter of factly.
I feel it necessary to write in to give a massive BZ to a man who was not only on top of his portfolio, but had the wisdom, subdued passion although passionate, delivered coming from the heart, speaking for hundreds of men and women, and well deserves a bit more than “thank you for your time etc”, from Wellington and from the many people his submission covers. I hope and trust that many [thank you’s] flood into the RNZNCA’s office and into other media slots. Commander Rands did us all proud, yes, even here in the UK and that pride should be registered.
On behalf of all Commonwealth of Nations especially mariners in this case, I salute your Sir, and thank you for such a persuasive, gentle but yet hard-hitting submission and I will follow the outcome with renewed energy and interest from afar.
Yours most sincerely
Godfrey Dykes
Ex RN WO Communications Branch.
UNQUOTE.
Have just watched the video. Frank, Farmboy, and Jack all gave very good presentations on different aspects of life in the RNZN. My thanks to the three of you. It will be interesting to see just what now happens from these submissions. I thought the stern-looking one with the glasses hanging from his nose whilst Frank gave his presentation looked the embodiment of seriousness, good stuff Chris. With the elections three months from now I just hope something is said and done to rectify this outstanding problem before then, otherwise………
A very good presentation indeed. Thanks to all involved.
We wait hopefully for changes.
I have followed this saga about who is a veteran and who is not What is considered qualifying service and what is considered routine service and the important difference Those who currently do not have what is considered qualifying service want everything changed to include their service when it comes to entitlements under the Veterans Support Act The problem is the date distinction of 1974 which excludes many benefits for those who served before that date compared to those who served after that date So far I have not seen a single submission saying that those who served before that cut off date should get all the benefits of those who served after that date
I think the Act and the relevant provisions as to Veterans with qualifying service is as it should be Lets not water everything down to cater for the noisy people It is what it is
I think so many are allowing this issue to consume their whole being Leave the past where it is and accept that you do not qualify and move on
No question, every person is entitled to have his/her views placed on record. However, my rejoinder to people who wish to knowingly sully the waters against those who have unselfishly dedicated hundreds upon hundreds of hours over many years to help all ex servicemen and women achieve their Veteran benefits and entitlements in a careful, professional and unhurried way are deserving of much high praise and not an attempt to consciously and intentionally euthanise their outstanding work. To me, the latter is an expression of the ostrich effect! VIR PRUDENS NON CONTRA VENTUM MINGIT.
Well well Mr. Catley reading back through some of your earlier comments in here it appears your lean on the Ostrich theory often, mostly when others do not agree with your point of view Every individual is entitled to an opinion unless you subscribe to a well-known philosophy adopted by a particular group we would all like to keep out of NZ You seem to take the view your way or no way!
Personally, sir, I am a returned veteran and enjoy all the benefits bestowed on me by the NZ Government on behalf of the grateful New Zealander taxpayers who recognize my service
Be thankful for what you get because someone else has to pay for it and there should be some qualifications on entitlement
Cheers
Thank you for your opinion. Like your good self my long and distinguished RNZN career [27 continuous years] has also been recognised by the NZ government and, as such, I enjoy the benefits and entitlements of a ‘bona fide’ veteran. However, parking my award/rewards to one side, I pride myself on having the compassion, foresight and vision to be able to understand the plight of many other Kiwi military personnel who have also served their country proud in areas of conflict within the Far East Strategic Reserve and the Australia, New Zealand and the United Kingdom arena but, for reasons outside their control have not as yet been appropriately recognised or rewarded for their invaluable military service to New Zealand. I am pleased to advise that I will continue to do my very best to assist/help my Kiwi military Brothers and Sisters in every way that I can to achieve their long overdue NZ veteran awards/rewards. Semper Fidelis!