Leading Signalman Pat Luxton – Oral History

It is important for people reading this manuscript to remember that these are the personal recollections of Mr Luxton. Time and lack of resources have precluded the researching of facts to draw attention to any errors. The views expressed in this oral history are those of the interviewee only and not the NZDF, RNZN, and the Navy Museum.

This is an interview with Mr Pat Luxton at 3 Luxton Place, Sumner, taking place on the 27th November 1990.

Now Pat I’ve explained to you in broad outline the reason that I am here. I would be grateful at the outset, if you could explain to me how you became to get interested in the Navy, and outline your early involvement with it please.

Yes, well it sounds a very interesting project that you have embarked on.

Just one little correction or amendment should I say. I am really according to my Service Certificate Lawrence Frederick Luxton, but most people wouldn’t know me as that. I am well known as Pat. Just to clarify that little point.

Now to answer your question regarding my involvement in the Navy. I have always been mad on the sea, from a very small child. I remember in the days when we had water tanks, I had it rigged up with sails at about the age of 7 or 8. I used to play in the washhouse which was an outside room, although attached to the house, and think my Mother’s hand wringer was the steering wheel. We had a retail shop and we had a bach at Waimak, and everyone had the name of ships, the Kent and the Swift and Destroyers and so on. So yes I have had a very long interest in things nautical and the Navy. That was way back.

In fact mentioning the bach, one of our visitors at the bach, because he was a friend of my sister’s was Peter Phipps, who was then a merry matelot in bell bottomed trousers. So again I have had connections in that area.

When did you get formally involved with the Volunteer Reserve?

Well when I was at Primary School we had a character, who was also an early RNVR, by the name of Gareth Williams, `Gaffer’ as he was known. He came to our school which was St Michael’s School, an Anglican Church School, and because we didn’t have any men teachers, he used to come on a Friday and he formed what would be today known I suppose as a Sea Cadet Unit, and I was the Senior Rating. We, in Primary School days carried out this quasi military quasi Sea Cadet Unit and that’s my first involvement, really, with the formal side of Navy.

While I was at Secondary School I joined the RNVR. I was the only Secondary School boy. In those days the age of joining was 18, I was only 16, and the Commanding Officer happened to be visiting Victoria Lake, where the model yachts are sailed, and a friend of mine was sailing one and I was with him. Commander Kersley asked my friend to make a model boat for his son, which he did. He said “well we had better put our names down”. The result was that I got in at that time and my friend didn’t.

What year was that Pat?

From memory 1934.

So I became the baby of the Canterbury Division at that time, and was so for a couple of years, still being a school boy, and I remember I used to always cycle past the Headquarters in my short trousers with my head down and looking the other direction, in case anybody saw me, I was so embarrassed.

What sort of training did you get in those early days?

Well we all started off as Seamen, then we could specialize after a period, I forget how long it was, but it was only a short time, six months or so, and we had to do our Seamanship training. During that time I went to sea in HMS as she was then Wakakura, and did the trip around to Akaroa. Of course we found conditions much different to shore life. Drinking out of basins, we weren’t issued with cups in those days, in the training ship. The Chief, I just can’t recall his name used to chase us up and down the Akaroa Wharf, with the ropes end around our backside for the last one, and we took it in good part. Davis Goff was the Executive Officer, later to become Commodore, and Gardiner, who was the Champion Heavy Weight Boxer of the British Navy I think at that time, was the Captain. One of our Ratings, the same Gareth Williams I mentioned early on, he had a very hot temper and the Skipper picked him up on his steering, he wasn’t keeping a compass course. Gareth dropped the wheel, and went up to the compass platform and threatened to have him on, in a boxing match.

I see.

What sort of boys were joining the Volunteer Reserve in those days?

Oh a cross section of the community. There were some from the Addington Workshops, there were some from Banks, Office people, manual workers, tradesmen, the whole cross section of New Zealand really. The remarkable thing is that we are all still great cobbers.

Yes that’s interesting.

Yes we still meet regularly, once a month. Those of us who are left are still very firm friends, and we have outings together and that, from those very early days.

The Wakakura was the training ship for the VR’s in those days ?

Yes, yes she was the training ship. Actually there was pressure on the Government at this time of course to have more than one, and the Government papers reflect this at the time. The out come in the end was they decided to build the three training ships, Tui, Kiwi and Moa. They of course were not completed until during the War, 41 I think it was they were completed and commissioned, or it might have been late 40. At that time there was only the one, the Wakakura. Although they did commission the Duchess, a passenger ship in Auckland for running down the Gulf, as an auxiliary sweeper for exercises. Not long prior to the War, there was another little coastal boat down here, the RNVR did take on at one time, the Wootten. We had our own sail training cutter of course, the Deveron, which was a 52 foot cutter, and gave us excellent training. We used to take that to sea every weekend, and at Christmas time go around to Akaroa and Timaru and she even went up to Kaiapoi one trip. Don Stanton who I believe you are going to interview later would be the man to tell you about those trips. I certainly did a lot of sea time in her, and I was proud to be the topsail hand.

Did you do any training in the cruisers on the station before the War ?

The Communication Branch did. I did training in Dunedin and had several trips in Achilles. We were given two weeks training as communicators usually, or 10 days. We would either join her in Lyttelton or sail from Lyttelton to Dunedin or Auckland.

Did you do any overseas voyages in any of the cruisers or not ?

Well I personally did. Achilles was going home for a refit in 38, and I thought it was a grand idea to have a trip around the world. I put in a request along with Frank Jefferies to be taken in her for training. The Navy Board agreed, they said “yes, you’ve done so much training this year, we will train you for the rest of your time”. I think the maximum you can do in one year was 6 weeks, and they paid us up for a total of six weeks. Having done a fortnight before that I received a months pay, and then the rest of the time I had to pay my Victualling, which was 1 and 8 pence halfpenny per day. I am one of the few people in the world as Frank Jefferies is who have paid to serve in the Royal Navy.

Well that is a good precedent.

What, you went home to England did you ?

Yes, well I say home, because my family always have a growl about that, me calling it home. In those days England was or Britain was known as home here. We went right around the world, out Panama and back Suez.

When the War occurred in 1939, how did it affect you ?

Well I personally at the time was serving in the Merchant Navy. I was actually on the wheel the night the War broke out. They came through and said to me “well War has been declared”. We had just left the Chatham Islands just a couple of hours before hand. I eventually was in a ship called the Katiki, which was a collier on the West Coast run. We sailed from Wellington down to Westport and then up around the top to Whangarei and down to Auckland. When we got to Auckland I was mobilized as was the Second Mate, who at that time he was better known as `China Joe Stevens’, he later commanded one of the tankers on the Coast before he died not so long ago.

You joined the Merchant Service as a ?

As a Seaman.

Why hadn’t you joined the RNZN, had that ever crossed your mind ?

No, strangely enough there were three of us, good cobbers at the time, we used to spend a lot of time boating. Captain as he finally was Ray Pugh Williams, and Rear Admiral John O’Connell Ross, John and I used to spend every night in a shed down at Lyttelton to play sailors. We made hammocks out of sacks and slung it in an old shed, that’s still there alongside the graving dock. John took on the Navy professionally and reached the top, Ray Pugh Williams took on the Merchant Service and reached top. I, although I loved the sea, and still go to sea as an Able Seaman in the old tug Lyttelton, left it. One of the reasons being my health. I had seen so many come ashore and go back to sea again, come ashore and go back and get nowhere. I decided that you had to swallow the anchor and make the sea my hobby, and so that I did, and it still is very much my hobby.

When War broke out, you were in fact mobilized into the Volunteer Reserve ?

Yes, yes I was a Volunteer. Actually when War broke out, they had what was known as the T124 Scheme, which Merchant Service Ratings went in on their Merchant Service pay and, I thought this was a good lurk, so I applied as a T124, although I was a RNVR, but they wouldn’t have me on as that. They said “no, we will bring you in at the lower rate of pay”, which they did.

You were a Signalman ?

I was a Leading Signalman, I had picked up my hook for Leading Signalman in the Atlantic before the War in 1938. He was then Lieutenant Commander, he was later Rear Admiral Royal Yachts, his name just passes me by, I haven’t got a good memory for names.

No, okay.

Where were you posted to on mobilization ?

I suppose having been at sea, they thought they were doing me a good turn, and they sent me to the Examination Boat at Lyttelton, as a Leading Hand in that. I remained there swinging around the buoy for over a year, and by this time I was really chocker, because it wasn’t counting sea time for my Merchant Service time, which I wanted to get my tickets. When I got leave, I went to Wellington and walked straight on in to the office of `Bubbly’ Morris, who knew me through my overseas trip. He was the Director of Naval Reserves and Mobilization, Captain Morris, more precisely. He said “what do you want Luxton ?”, and I said “well I want to get to sea” I said, “I’ve been swinging around the buoy in Lyttelton”. He said “oh this is not the way to do it”. I said “well I have tried every other thing, I’ve put in a request and nothing happens, so I’ve come up here”. He said “well this is not the way, you go back to your ship”. I went back to my ship and before I was back a telegram had arrived at Navy Office and I was on my way to Egypt, trooping. So I went up to Wellington and joined the Dominion Monarch as a Convoy Signalman in charge of two Australians I had in my group, the three of us. We took the Monarch up to Suez. I was taken out of her there, because, part of our convoy was lost, three ships were lost in the first mining of the Canal, and they didn’t think they would be able to get out. They put me in the HMS Stag, which was the Depot ship, and I was in the boom defence vessel for Suez Canal for a short period.

When you say Convoy Signalman, can you just explain what that means ?

Well we were attached. In a Convoy the Senior Officer on the Merchant ships is designated Commodore or they have an ex retired Naval Officer as the Commodore of the Convoy, and he is the Senior Officer of the Convoy group. Attached to him were these three Signalmen, so that you kept a continuous watch, and we were on his staff. It was the Captain of the Dominion Monarch in this instance, he didn’t have a Naval Commodore come in, and he was the Commodore of the Convoy, and we were the Commodore of the Senior Officers ship of the Convoy. There was a 40 ship Convoy in the end. Before that we had one of the biggest tonnages Convoy in the War at that stage. There were the New Amsterdam, the Queen Elizabeth, and oh, there was only about five, the Albertia, there was only about five ships with the tonnage, she was very big. The Achilles took us out of Wellington.

Then you were unescorted were you ?

No, no, the Achilles took us over to Australia and then we had Australian escorts, we were escorted all the way up. Our escort left us off Aden and went in to Djibouti, circled around the Harbour sank the remnants of some Italian Destroyers that were in the Harbour at the time and then came back and joined us.

You were saying some of the Convoy was lost, actually in the Canal ?

Yes in the Canal. What actually happened was, for some reason that only the Lords of the Admiralty would know, they stopped sweeping the Canal the day that we went through, and of course the place was riddled with spies, and Jerry got to know of us, and came over and dropped magnetic mines in the Canal. We had gone through to the Bitter Lakes, that’s half way down, up the Canal, and the second half of the Convoy came through into the minefield, and sunk these three leading ships in the second half of the Canal. They thought they would be able to get them out, but they had to blow them up in the end and pull them onto the banks by bulldozer to clear the Canal.

Good heavens. It seems a strange thing to have happened doesn’t it ?

It is mentioned in Cunningham’s `Sailor’s Odyssey’, the incident is mentioned in his book.

After you had your spell on the boom defence, what happened to you then ?

Well, we went down by train to Port Taufiq, that’s at the southern end of the Canal, and we joined a ship called the Lancashire. This was a Bibby Line Trooper that trooped in peace time as well as in War. There were 20 Australian sailors going back home, and as it so happened I was the Senior Officer of the draft, as they were Leading Hands, so I became in charge of the draft. We went down below the first night and we had one potato and a bit of thin grey meat and some bones for our meal. I being the person I am, immediately went to see the Purser and made a complaint on behalf of the Navy party, and on the way past the dining room, we were carrying Italian prisoners at the time, there were all the Italian Officers sitting down to great steak and kidney pies. That made me riled, so I told the Purser in no uncertain terms that the New Zealand and Australian Governments would be hearing about this. I said that in the Navy we always had four meals a day, and we were entitled to it, so we got our four meals a day. The soldiers on board only got two, but the sailors after that got their four meals a day, and we had naval tea with cake and that sort of thing served at 4 o’clock. Our food did improve, but it still wasn’t good. We went to Bombay, and then the ship was going into dock, so we paid off at Bombay. While we were there we had a couple of weeks in a Hotel, the Leander came in. I went aboard Leander to see friends, and strangely enough `China’ Joe Stevens as I mentioned before was confined to his cabin. I asked about a chappy I knew from New Brighton, and he was in cells, they had evidently had a fight. So both of these, two acquaintances of mine, I saw a lot of others of course. Then she sailed that day, and that’s the day she got Ramb 1, just outside Bombay, the Italian Merchant cruiser. Yes, and then I joined the Mauritania.

What was her task ?

Well the Mauritania was trooping at the time, and we were taking sick and wounded back to Australia, a fairly empty ship. There was what we thought was an armed Merchant cruiser still adrift in the Indian Ocean, and we went down, right down south. There was another big passenger ship, I can’t remember which one it was. It might have been the Isle De France or the New Amsterdam, and they spread in single line abreast, with distance between ships of 8 miles. There were 3 cruisers, two Australians and one British, and we went right down the Indian Ocean on a sweep, and they used to put us out on the wings as a decoy in the day. It would cover about 65 miles of ocean, at least, in our sweep down looking for this ship. It turned out on reading just recently, I found out it was a pocket battleship we were looking for so luckily we didn’t find it ! Although we did have a good turn of speed, I doubt if we could have got away from her guns. When we eventually made Australia we left the ship in Australia and went to Penguin. Oh there was another Englishman in this ship, so there were four of us, there was one too many. I was in that little Sydney Harbour ferry, that was later torpedoed, for a couple of nights as an accommodation ship, and then I was recalled back to the Mauritania. When I got to Wellington, they took me out to do an active service VS3 that is Visual Signalman 3rd Class Course, and I went to Philomel to do that.

Then what ?

Well at Philomel, after the Course, from memory I think I joined the ships company at Philomel, the SDO, Watchkeeping in the SDO, and I also had a very interesting assignment, I was Killick of the Mess in a Harbour Board shed, which had about 250 to 300 Ratings, and that was quite a job, being Killick of the Mess. I took over from, the name has slipped me, I can see him, the chappy I took over from. I was there until I got a draft. While I was there incidentally, an interesting thing happened. I was on watch one night and the SDO, Signal Distributing Office, which was down by Calliope jetty in those days, a concrete building, and about 10 to 12 in the evening a signal came through, “unidentified aircraft flying in the Gulf”. We passed the signal through to Combined Headquarters, which was in the Auckland Museum, and they came back and said “oh it must be one of ours out for a practice flight”. Next morning I found out that it turned out it was a Japanese sea plane. After the War it was found it was a sea plane that had been launched from a Japanese submarine in the Gulf on reconnaissance over Auckland. Of course not a shot was fired at her. That was one of the two positive enemy reports that I was involved with in New Zealand during the War.

What was the other one ?

Well that was when I was eventually sent down to Lyttelton again. This time to the Port War Signal Station. The Petty Officer in charge was a Yeoman Bob Leach an Auckland, RNVR, and he went on leave and left me in charge for a fortnight. One morning, just at daybreak as I recall it, although reading another book, the times don’t tie up. A Signalman on watch, by the name of Stefferson, who came from Hampden, which is out of Oamaru, and his father had been a fisherman. I had confidence in him, that he knew the sea, he had been messing about in boats all his life, when he reported having seen a vessel out there. I went up in my pyjamas to the signal tower, and couldn’t see any thing, there was misty cloud, and he told me the bearing, which was towards the entrance of Port Levy, Baleine Point, and I put it through, I originated a signal “unidentified vessel, bearing so and so, distance so and so”, to the Navy Office, Lyttelton. The Telegraphist on watch there, took it to the Officer of the Watch, and he rolled over in his bunk and said “oh, there is no ships due”, and went to sleep again. Thereafter, and I have been able to document this, it was the German raider laying mines off Lyttelton Harbour. It was rather strange in handling two enemy reports in New Zealand.

That raider, that you’ve just mentioned, that was not the raider that lay mines that sank the Niagara you said ?

No, I don’t think so, no. The names as I say, I could look it up in a couple of minutes, but the Orion was one and the Penguin was the other.

The German mines that were laid, were subsequently found as part of the sweeping of mines around the coast presumably ?

No, the mines off Lyttelton were never found, they were never found, whether they were set incorrectly or the currents took them away. I remember after the War, I was doing sea training with a Sea Cadet draft in either the Kiwi or the Tui, and we shot our mines right at the very path where they were laid. And we were on the Quarter Deck and I happened to casually remark that this was where the minefield was laid during the War, and the faces of the Ratings changed considerably, when they realized that they were sweeping over a minefield.

That particular incident is not particularly well known is it ?

No, no it isn’t. They did make a film after the War. A Captain Sutherland, who has now died, he was the Examination Officer that night. They approached me to go on radio, – I don’t want to say too much on this – but the Officer involved was still alive at that time, and he was in the regular Service at that time, and he had been given an OBE, and I didn’t think it was prudent to. But they did have a film about it, and they wanted me to go on it and make a statement, but I wouldn’t.

The PWSS the ………

The Port War Signal Station.

Was at Godley Head ?

Yes it was right at, just below where the Lighthouse was then, the Lighthouse has now been lowered again because of fog and one thing and another, but it was right on the cliff edge, and we had fairly good visibility right down to Lang Lookout, and way out north.

How long did you serve there ?

Well again I did about a year there. This time I went to the Secretary of the Seamens’ Union, whom I had had dealings with in the Merchant Service, and he wrote, of all things, to the Minister of Defence and a week later I was in the Achilles.

Okay, you must have been getting a bit of reputation by now ?

Yes – stirrer !

Yes right, why not.

I have still got the letter from the Minister.

Who was that, Fred Jones was it ?

Yes it must have been, yes.

What was Achilles doing at this stage ?

Oh well, she did very little when I was in her. She was in dock when, no she wasn’t in dock when I joined her, but shortly afterwards she went into dock for a refit. The crew were given leave, and because I had only just joined her very long, I only got a weeks leave. At that time the ferries were only sailing, one ferry sailing every second day, day light trip, and it would have meant I had to go back three days before hand, so I would have had only about two days at home. I sent a telegram up requesting extra leave, which they granted, and then it meant I went back on the Saturday. Of course I forgot all about that there was no train at 7 o’clock on Saturday night, there was a train at 3 o’clock in the afternoon on a Saturday and 7 o’clock on a Sunday in those days of the War. Of course when I got to Wellington, no train. I went to Navy Office and reported in, they sent a signal to the ship. When I got back on the Monday morning of all things, there was a Court Martial and I was the Senior Signal Rating onboard and had to hoist the Union flag at the yard arm, with a one gun salute. I was naturally put in the rattle when I arrived back at 7 o’clock, having been 24 hours adrift. I was given 10 days stoppage of leave and 10 days stoppage of pay for that. We got the Jack up on time. The funny thing about it was, that I don’t know if this should be recorded or not. The charge was homosexual activities under the gun cover with a Marine and a Sailor. How they found out, one of them, I am not sure which, reported sick, and they diagnosed it as Syphilis of the backside, and both the Ratings were discharged and sent to prison as they were in those days for it. After the War, the Rating was able to prove that there was no such thing as Syphilis of the backside, you couldn’t catch it. He was given a big pay out for being wrongfully imprisoned. Later on medical science again found that you could get it. It didn’t stop my 10 days stoppage of pay and 10 days stoppage of leave.

It sounds to me as if you were correctly punished.

Oh I think so. I wouldn’t complain about it.

Did you stay in Achilles while she was doing the refit ?

Yes, yes and then we went to sea for exercises and one thing and another. Having had a bad stomach all my life, the Watchkeepers food, the heated fatty stuff soon played up with me, and caught up with me there. It was alright when I was in the other jobs, because it wasn’t the same sort of food you know. In the Merchant ships that I was serving in, we had excellent food of course. The Navy food caught up with me, and I was sent up to Sick Bay in Philomel. In fact I was there when the first operation, this may be of interest. The first operation in Philomel’s Hospital was performed. A chap had to have his toe removed just before lunch time they were doing it. `Up spirits’ at 11 o’clock came, and they finished the operation, and at `Up Spirits’ everybody went. All the Sick Bay tiffies, that were operating staff and nurses, they went down to the Mess and just left it as it was. One of the wags out of the ward, got out of bed and went in and got the toe from the rubbish bucket and passed it around everybody there.

Your health affected the rest of your naval career did it ?

I was invalided out `Permanently Unfit for Naval Service’, PUNS.

Another interesting little incident happened. During the time I was in Hospital I became due for my first Long Service, my Good Conduct Badge, we had RNVR ones, but this was an active service, 3 years Active Service you see. By this time I was convalescing. They sent me down to see the Captain to request for the award of the Good Conduct Badge, and I was duly taken in before the Captain, who in later years, lived not very far from here and was quite a friend of mine, Commander Elworthy. I had been in bed of course for a couple of weeks, three weeks, and one of the first things he said to me was “your hair is very long”. Of course his used to hang down over his collar, and I couldn’t help but laugh. He put me on a charge for insubordination. He put me outside the First Lieutenant’s cabin, who was Lieutenant Commander Dearden, a sheep farmer from North Canterbury. As a matter of fact my Uncle used to manage his Station at one time. Evidently, I think whether it was done on purpose or whether they forgot about me, I was left standing there for a couple of hours. Of course Philomel’s Hospital by this time began to panic, and rang up and wanted to know where I was. When they found I was a Hospital patient and had been left standing there, and was very shakey by this time, they sent the Captain’s car for me and took me up to the Hospital in the Captain’s car.

Well the fact that you were invalided out, obviously hasn’t stopped your association with the Navy, because you are still associated with it to this day.

Well yes, after I was invalided out in 43, and in 45 I embarked on doing a University Degree, and as soon as I finished that in 49 I offered myself for service with the Sea Cadets, and stayed with them for 21 years, and served in the Sea Cadets. I started off at Steadfast, that’s the main Unit in Christchurch, and then went down to Steadfast as Officer in Charge there. Then took over the Command of the Cadet Battalion at Christchurch Technical College. I actually did a Course at Burnham, an Army Course, in that capacity of a Naval Officer. Then I was President of the Navy League and Vice President of the New Zealand in later years of course. That’s when I resigned my commission with the Sea Cadets to take up the position of Vice President, Local President of the Navy League from Peter Hall, that’s Jeremy’s father.

You’ve really been associated actively with things nautical for over 50 years.

Oh well over 50 years. I would say over 60, because you know, as I was at Primary School when I first became interested.

Am I right in thinking that you were awarded the MBE. ?

Yes, well it was for the services of the Navy League and community services, because it involved other things as well.

It was a combination ?

Yes

You are a good all rounder ?

Yes

Now Pat you’ve taken an interest not only as a chap who served in the Navy, but as a University Graduate, and I understand you got a Degree quite recently in Defence Policy generally and things affecting New Zealand. Have you got any views on how our Defence Policy has been conducted in recent years at all ?

Yes, well I suppose it all comes back really to the nuclear stance. I was very sorry to see us withdraw our commitments with America, because there is no doubt about it, anybody who served in the War realizes that if it hadn’t been for America, Britain was fully committed and said so, it is documented, that she couldn’t look after us. America came in, and if it hadn’t been for America coming in, the Japanese would have been down here. It’s very sad to see the day, that they were turning, I say were turning our backs on America. I am very pleased to see that the new Government are making steps to have this amended, because I feel that we must go along with America. I say must, because I am one who feels that defence is still necessary. We have got the reunification of Germany now, which in the short term will be wonderful. I have just returned from 3 months, mainly in East Europe and Germany, and I think it is a wonderful thing for Germany. I am not so sure that in a decade or a couple of decades that it is going to be a wonderful thing for Europe. There is still a lot of hatred in Europe. One country, the French hate the Germans and the Germans hate the French, the Dutch hate both of them and so on. It could mean that there could be another blow up there, which has been happening since the early 1800’s. It still hasn’t settled down. There has been a border and frontier changes continuously since then, and I think we will see more before it’s finally settled down. Of course we would all love to see a united Europe, and we are working towards that, but in the mean time there is teething troubles.

There has been an awful lot of criticism about the cost of modern warships, about the ANZAC frigate, and you know they are very expensive. Do you feel that that’s a valid criticism or what’s your opinion on that ?

Yes, strangely I do feel that it is a valid criticism, but how do you get around it. You know, you have got to have a fighting Navy, if you are going to have a Navy that’s worth while. Sure we need fisheries patrols. I have often wondered why the Government hasn’t gone into some of these smaller ships for that business, but bigger than our present fisheries boats. You see, in my mind, the patrol craft that they ordered were not really suitable for the job. I think every man that has been in the Navy knows that. I remember one Admiral in the early days of their seagoing, saying that he never slept when they were at sea. He told me that personally, and I can quite believe it. They are ashore now, and we are using the RNVR vessels, the Kiwi Class. There is talk I believe of having them upgraded to make them more suitable. The Scandinavians have some very good class of ships for that but that is a different question to the fighting force. If we are going to participate in peace keeping, then we need to have something that can act in a peace keeping role. I think we certainly need some frigates for that.

You would be of the school that said “okay it’s expensive, but we’ve still got to make our proper contribution to collective defence” ?

Yes if we are going to have collective defence, it’s a must, yes.

Okay thank you.

Who was the Commanding Officer of the Christchurch Reserve when War broke out ?

Oh at that time it was Commander Ralph Newman, who had been an Officer in the New Zealand Shipping Company I think it was. He served and had come ashore, and at the time he was engaged in one of the Oil Companies as a salesman. When War broke out he was mobilized. He made four rings, a four ring Captain, and he was the Senior RNVR Captain afloat in the whole of the British Commonwealth. Now not many people know about this whereas his friend and contemporary and neighbour, Kippenberger is well known, Ralph on the other hand is one who very few know about, and yet was awarded the CBE, DSO. and Bar and had command of fleet sweepers in the Adriatic and the English Channel and did a wonderful job. As they say it’s the silent service.

He is now dead ?

He is now dead, yes. He died in Napier, he was Secretary of the RSA in Napier I think when he died.

Yes I think he was well known amongst a small circle of Naval people ?

Yes that’s right.

What you are saying is that he didn’t get the public acclaim ?

Yes the publicity wasn’t there.

Yes the public acclaim wasn’t the same ?

Yes

Well thank you for that, because I think that is well worth saying.

I gather also that you knew a present serving Senior Officer in Commodore Hunter ?

Yes, the story I would like to relate with this is, just prior to Ian joining the Navy, I had taken him up to Tamaki, this is the old Tamaki, when it was down the Island, for a Sea Cadet Course. At that time he was a Cadet Petty Officer. I happened to be the Duty Sea Cadet Officer this night, and about midnight I was given a shake in my cabin and taken to the boys’ dorm. The Seamen Boys had raided the Sea Cadet dormitory, which was a normal boy like thing that happened, and we accepted it. But somebody got a bit carried away, and Ian Hunter was in his hammock and he was pulverized, when I say pulverized, I say pulverized he was pulverized, they had really smashed him up. So much so that quite correctly the Naval Authorities put him in the Sick Bay and wouldn’t allow him to travel home the next day when we were travelling to his parents, because he was so badly swollen and bruised. He came down by himself a couple of days later. Now the interesting thing about this was that in about two or three months he put in to join the Navy as a Cadet, it was accepted, and I thought “well that takes guts”. I admired him immensely for that action, after having been set upon and really knocked about, and he went back to face up to it.

I will make sure that he hears the tape. Thank you.

Well Pat I would like to thank you very much for giving me your time. You’ve obviously been a great supporter of the, not only of the Reserve, but of the RNZN itself, since it’s been formed. It’s nice to meet you and to hear a bit about your life. Thank you very much indeed.

(end of interview)